P W comment-40204 2011-02-19T15:12:24Z 2011-02-19T15:12:24Z Tomato, tamato. Ignorance is bliss, as evidenced by most of your missives. You're right: I DO know nothing about the subject...and even less-so after reading your "art-ikle" P W 2011-02-19T15:12:24Z stevevanoni comment-41045 2010-11-21T00:07:57Z 2010-11-21T00:07:57Z here is a link to the project and some other things from finland etc... this past summer a great video by my great friend Errki Pirtola.... I hope that you enjoy it... http://www.google.com/webhp?tab=mw#q=%22steve+vanoni%22&hl=en&site=webhp&prmd=ivo&psj=1&ei=3GHoTN_XC4S2sAPZ3qWxCw&start=10&sa=N&fp=573da4ec7e15bdf2 if you put it in your browser you can check it out yayayayayay............ sweeet peace.... stevevanoni 2010-11-21T00:07:57Z stevevanoni comment-41044 2010-11-20T23:57:34Z 2010-11-20T23:57:34Z Hi, thanks Lynn for the kind words of support.... Horsecow is currently reforming and regrouping there is limited web presence available...... It is great what the people did with the hay bales, very lovely indeed..... Most artists like everyone else are most likely trying to make it through these tough times and dealing with it as they do.... It is a lovely challenge, Dale, but artists like everyone else work in different ways.... We can't always drop what we are in the middle of and run to perhaps go create political works that will help save a particular group of suffering people even though it might be the best thing that we can do..... there are many challenges for all of us....... Last summer I conducted a workshop in with a group of Finnish artists in Finland for one week, 8 hours a day doing precisely what you suggested; we went to a dump gathered materials and one week later had a public reception for the "COM-POST-MODERN SCULPTURES FOR THE AVANT GARDENERS" Art Exhibition which took place in a lush outdoor nature area outside of the gallery grounds... what a great show and a great group of folks to work with.......... Sacramento like everywhere in the world needs more art everywhere and needs to learn how to take care of it's citizens well being; roof over head and a full stomach, etc............... much love to all of you, Steve Vanoni stevevanoni 2010-11-20T23:57:34Z David Alvarez comment-40312 2010-11-10T07:03:05Z 2010-11-10T07:03:05Z Lynn, The last place they were moving to or moved to was 721 North B St. I ran into Allen Denault this summer who may be running Horse Cow now and he lives in Placerville and was going to do a project up there (this was in August). I'm not really sure if it's now located in Sacramento or Placerville. http://www.facebook.com/allen.denault David Alvarez 2010-11-10T07:03:05Z Dale Kooyman comment-40293 2010-11-09T19:44:24Z 2010-11-09T19:44:24Z Josh, while Tennessee is not one of my favorite states to visit, why do you have the arrogance, if not prejudice and ignorance, to judge it as you have? In fact, this straw art did receive excellent reviews from some art groups who praised it as "original, creative, humorous and unique." Those qualities you apparently lack appreciation for. Instead, you expect people to think just like you it seems. Straw, like chalk art, does not happen to be a medium that can be preserved or travel well but that does not make either of them any less a work of art. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-09T19:44:24Z Dale Kooyman comment-40292 2010-11-09T19:28:00Z 2010-11-09T19:28:00Z Thanks Naga, you got it exactly right. Sorry to say that the challenge has not spurred reactions from those who can actually do as you interpreted. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-09T19:28:00Z naga comment-40217 2010-11-08T17:57:08Z 2010-11-08T17:57:08Z The real challenge here seems to be to put art back into the art walk. The was it was worded was so hyperbolic it can't seriously be taken as "hurling emotional and hurtful insults at the entire Sacramento art community." In the context it was written, seems to be a call for the 2nd Sat party poseurs to collaborate on an idea that engages and gives back to the community, centered on actual artwork. naga 2010-11-08T17:57:08Z Dale Kooyman comment-40216 2010-11-08T17:49:32Z 2010-11-08T17:49:32Z As I explained earlier, the quote you used I took from an art historian whom I respect as having credibility. So you might want to tell him. But to answer your question, yes, I do believe "every piece of art hanging in museum" holds to that definition--some evoking more of both and some evoking less than others, so much depends on the viewer. The message is in the work of art and some get it and some don't. Some messages are very simple, whimsical or fun messages like the straw art and others convey a "heavier" message. It would be interesting to talk to you in person to expand that discussion. As to the hostile remarks, note that the positive ones understood the challenge that I offered and made suggestions and I thanked them for it. The hostile ones did not come from artists as one admitted. They were empty and contributed nothing to the challenge or the dialogue. Such comments mean nothing to me, but I do answer them pointless as it may be. I think that you've noticed this unfortunate attitude in comments for many articles sacpress publishes. Sacpress offers a great service to our community and thanks for doing it. Incidentally,the technique that I chose to offer the challenge is one that various groups use to stimulate response. Coaches during practice often demean their team members to spur them to do better. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In my case, it didn't. But I'm not sure any sweet talk as one of your staff suggested would have either. I have no idea how many of the artists have a computer or read sacpress, so that may have contributed to he lack of response. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-08T17:49:32Z Dale Kooyman comment-40215 2010-11-08T17:25:40Z 2010-11-08T17:25:40Z Again you show YOUR ignorance by your first two words. Hay is food for animals and straw is bedding for animals and was used for human bedding for centuries in countries that grew grain. But I doubt that you know what grain is. And the article was not intended to educate about art--only to pose a challenge to Sacramento's artists, but you didn't understand that either. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-08T17:25:40Z Geoff Samek comment-40211 2010-11-08T05:30:22Z 2010-11-08T05:30:22Z In a sense all artists are self-proclaimed. When one makes art, as a career or a hobby, that act then defines one as an artist. I would also contend that your definition of art as being made with the, " intention of stimulating thoughts and emotions," is not entirely on point. Would every piece of art that hangs in a museum hold true to that strict definition? Perhaps amending it include not just intention but "affecting thought and emotion," would aid the definition. The suggestion that Sacramento use found items to produce art for our city is a lovely suggestion and challenge. Any hostile response to your article is derived from the fact that you end it hurling emotional and hurtful insults at the entire Sacramento art community. Geoff Samek 2010-11-08T05:30:22Z mpsycho comment-40206 2010-11-07T23:06:03Z 2010-11-07T23:06:03Z Ohhh yeah, I remember what else I've got to say! Yeah, folk art throughout North America as well as Outsider stuff has a sort of longstanding tradition of using reclaimed materials, read junk. There's been a lot of memorable examples over the years (furinstance Willard Watson, art car pioneer whose house was used in True Stories). So it's always been here, and sure, a revival of any art trend or movement is always possible. Another suggestion I would have is to buy outdated photographic/video media (eg that old b&w VHS camera at the Goodwill or 8mm or Land Camera) and see what you can come up with. Mr. Fuoco had a lot of fun with that widescreen projector back in the 80's... mpsycho 2010-11-07T23:06:03Z JoshFernandez comment-40205 2010-11-07T22:09:12Z 2010-11-07T22:09:12Z Hay or straw, whatever. All I know is if you took one of those straw monstrosities to any curator they would laugh you out of town. Unless, of course, that town was in Tennessee. JoshFernandez 2010-11-07T22:09:12Z Dale Kooyman comment-40203 2010-11-07T21:31:29Z 2010-11-07T21:31:29Z PW, your comments reflect that you know nothing about the subject, are unable or unwilling to contribute anything positive and will not admit when you are shown to be wrong one example only is your ignorant use of hay when the medium was straw--very different natural products. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-07T21:31:29Z Dale Kooyman comment-40202 2010-11-07T21:24:15Z 2010-11-07T21:24:15Z It may not have a permanent location. I only know what we saw the other day on 16th Streeet. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-07T21:24:15Z Lynn Mayugba comment-40200 2010-11-07T20:46:24Z 2010-11-07T20:46:24Z Gallery Horse Cow www.horsecow.com Does anyone have the newest location? It's not on C St. or Del Paso. Lynn Mayugba 2010-11-07T20:46:24Z Dale Kooyman comment-40195 2010-11-07T19:33:19Z 2010-11-07T19:33:19Z Bill, when it was a Hereford, some traffic accident or event hit it and it went somewhere for a repair. A couple of weeks ago as a friend and I were diving out 16th, we saw it again. Maybe the owner is fearful something might happen to it again and does not leave it out all of the time. As naga points out, I was offering a challenge to the artists to benefit their own careers and Sacramento, but PW is not capable of understanding that. As psychologists have confirmed, over the centuries man has a need to express art ranging from hieroglyphics in caves to the development of painting oils. Man has and will continue to find original ways to use various media to express that need for art. But PW finds it much easer and faster to make disrespectful remarks which shows his/her own ignorance and unwillingness to add anything positive or creative to the subject. The facts are that I have taken several college art classes and those who know me know I have a collection of classic prints by the masters, original oil by Frank, an original Jack London oil, two copies of Lautrec lithographs, Japanese wood block, a library of art books and videos of the French and Dutch Impressionists to mention only a few of whom I doubt PW knows anything about. Over the years I've had numerous art and sculpture friends whose creative skills I respect highly and had so many thoughtful discussions after visiting art museums in NYC, Chicago, LA, Washington D.C. SF and other smaller cities. This why I say that I'm no artist when compared to my friends or the works we viewed. What is more sad than laughable is PW's incoherent analogy, totally inapplicable. I guess this shows how much education has deteriorated. And like Josh, he/she doesn't know hay from straw even when it is identified in pictures and words right before his/her eyes. Now, PW, reflect on your own lack of knowledge and empty opinions. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-07T19:33:19Z mpsycho comment-40194 2010-11-07T18:11:45Z 2010-11-07T18:11:45Z This article, and the rain, makes me want to re-watch David Byrne's "True Stories" for some reason. mpsycho 2010-11-07T18:11:45Z naga comment-40191 2010-11-07T17:21:52Z 2010-11-07T17:21:52Z "With that background, I challenge Sacramento artists to use their imaginations to gather whatever materials that they may find discarded, lying around at home or in the streets to use whatever techniques they may choose to mold such materials into a work of art. Perhaps, the finished works can be preserved and displayed at various locations in Midtown or Downtown on the Mall." naga 2010-11-07T17:21:52Z P W comment-40188 2010-11-07T15:16:16Z 2010-11-07T15:16:16Z So-You're not an artist - and although you use the generality of "being appreciative of various kinds of art", you have the arrogance to end your little essay with a challenge to Sacramento artists to come up with something as "original" as sculpting/painting bales of hay? This would be like me saying that all of the doctors in Sacramento suck - so prove me wrong and find a cure for cancer! Your illogical leap is laughable. You should only write about those topics with which you are familiar and/or have done a little research on before embarrassing yourself. Again. P W 2010-11-07T15:16:16Z naga comment-40127 2010-11-05T18:02:20Z 2010-11-05T18:02:20Z How about a decorated bike (and art car) parade for all ages? naga 2010-11-05T18:02:20Z thsas comment-40125 2010-11-05T17:34:57Z 2010-11-05T17:34:57Z Seattle. thsas 2010-11-05T17:34:57Z naga comment-40109 2010-11-05T04:24:17Z 2010-11-05T04:24:17Z then Sacramento should have its bulls. naga 2010-11-05T04:24:17Z William Burg comment-40108 2010-11-05T04:13:36Z 2010-11-05T04:13:36Z Horse Cow hasn't been at the North C Street location for a couple of years. William Burg 2010-11-05T04:13:36Z William Burg comment-40107 2010-11-05T04:12:57Z 2010-11-05T04:12:57Z "Attack of the Killer Sacratomatoes"? William Burg 2010-11-05T04:12:57Z Dale Kooyman comment-40105 2010-11-05T03:44:25Z 2010-11-05T03:44:25Z Thanks again, Lynn, for adding something positive and educational to the discussion. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-05T03:44:25Z Dale Kooyman comment-40104 2010-11-05T03:42:13Z 2010-11-05T03:42:13Z Let's have a constructive dialogue like the other commenters. Instead, you choose to demean my knowledge and "credibility" but do not state your expertise that qualifies you to render such a personal attack. Read the article again, and you will find the first two paragraphs were either a direct quote or condensation of persons' statements who are recognized as experts in the art world. I never suggested as you mistakenly conclude, that any of the artists here use the media or techniques that the Kansas teenagers did. BTW, as shown repeatedly in the photos and captions, they used STRAW not hay . Dale Kooyman 2010-11-05T03:42:13Z Dale Kooyman comment-40103 2010-11-05T03:12:22Z 2010-11-05T03:12:22Z Bill should know about Seattle but the pigs I had not heard about. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-05T03:12:22Z Dale Kooyman comment-40102 2010-11-05T03:10:44Z 2010-11-05T03:10:44Z A Chicago friend sent me a copy of the book that has photos of all the cows that were displayed and where they were on show if you ever want to see it. They were dressed or adorned to represent women in every walk of life--from glamorous movie stars and fashion models to mothers and working business women in the Loop. They attracted tourists from all over the world. When the show ended that year most were sold. Chicago retained a few of what the community felt were the most creative. The sale made the art community tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-05T03:10:44Z Dale Kooyman comment-40100 2010-11-05T02:58:26Z 2010-11-05T02:58:26Z i've seen the bovine one for years on 16th but seems the last time I saw it, it was changed from a Hereford to another breed. It has been around for years and is great!. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-05T02:58:26Z Lynn Mayugba comment-40077 2010-11-05T00:43:47Z 2010-11-05T00:43:47Z Dale, one more artist you would like. Her name is Galelyn Williams. She lived here for years and actually worked at Tower Broadway. All of her art is "lost and found" objects. She now resides in Brooklyn, but comes here on a regular basis and has shows at Jay Jay Gallery on Elvas Ave. She does have a piece at the Crocker as well. http://www.galelynwilliams.com/statement.html Lynn Mayugba 2010-11-05T00:43:47Z JoshFernandez comment-40076 2010-11-05T00:43:33Z 2010-11-05T00:43:33Z Way to trivialize Sacramento artists (or "artists," as you call them) even though you have no idea what you're talking about and no credibility whatsoever to even offer such a challenge. And I'm pretty sure hay bale snowmen littered around the city would bring Sacramento right back to the old days of being one big trailer park. JoshFernandez 2010-11-05T00:43:33Z Lynn Mayugba comment-40075 2010-11-05T00:37:48Z 2010-11-05T00:37:48Z Gallery Horse Cow 1610 North C Street, Sacramento, CA 95814 (916) 441-4320 www.horsecow.com Lynn Mayugba 2010-11-05T00:37:48Z Lynn Mayugba comment-40074 2010-11-05T00:33:04Z 2010-11-05T00:33:04Z Was it Portland or Seattle that had pigs? Trying to remember. Dale, you would love Steve's art cars. Steve used to have a GIANT compound with all of his art on it. Gallery Horse Cow did just move though. Will try and find the new location for you. Lynn Mayugba 2010-11-05T00:33:04Z Bill Burgua comment-40073 2010-11-04T23:45:57Z 2010-11-04T23:45:57Z Chicago had its' cows. Elk Grove its' elk. How about monster tomatos for Sacto. Bill Burgua 2010-11-04T23:45:57Z Dale Kooyman comment-40072 2010-11-04T23:45:14Z 2010-11-04T23:45:14Z Thanks Lynn. Good start. Where are these works displayed? Have any photos? Any worthy of placing in prominent places in Midtown or Downtown for visitor to see the local talent? Dale Kooyman 2010-11-04T23:45:14Z Lynn Mayugba comment-40068 2010-11-04T23:29:21Z 2010-11-04T23:29:21Z I have to chime in and say that many Sacramento artists specialize in "found object " art. There is actually quite a movement in this medium. As far as students go, Phoebe Hearst Elementary School collected and created an enormous "junk" sculpture in the Spring at their DIY artwalk. It was incredible and extremely creative. I also cannot fail to mention one of Sacramento's best artists Steve Vanoni. Known for being a pioneer in outsider, performance and found object art. I think he could meet your challenge. Especially with his art cars. Check out Gallery Horse Cow. Lynn Mayugba 2010-11-04T23:29:21Z Dale Kooyman comment-40067 2010-11-04T22:57:06Z 2010-11-04T22:57:06Z Nope. But time will tell. Dale Kooyman 2010-11-04T22:57:06Z RichardRich comment-40066 2010-11-04T21:49:30Z 2010-11-04T21:49:30Z "I doubt that any one of those self-proclaimed [Sacramento] "artists" is able to top the Kansas high school kids' creations shown below." You're kiddiing...right? RichardRich 2010-11-04T21:49:30Z Dale Kooyman comment-29344 2010-06-06T17:41:00Z 2010-06-06T17:41:00Z I left Sacramento for several days just after writing this article and just returned, so these comments will probably not be read. But I did want to address the history of thestreet lighting issue. With Fargo's support, residents did try to get street lighting several years ago but the Midtown Businesses opposed our efforts, Keat of Smud Board opposed it, absentee apartment house owners voted against it, many others who did not want to lose their "privacy in the dark" violated and in a five to four vote Mayor Serna, council members Deborah Ortiz, Rob Kerth and two others no longer on the council but whose names I've forgotten defeated it. Thanks to Steve Cohn's efforts we did get a few blocks lighted later just north of J Street by using CDBG funds. Like one of the other commenters said, I have never lived in such an unlighted city as the central city is.s But again, you must realized that these neighborhoods were consider "throwaway" and only fit for low income and social service agencies and halfway houses. Incidentally, the metal protective device around trees is a very good idea but the high cost means planting fewer trees. Dale Kooyman 2010-06-06T17:41:00Z Mark comment-28781 2010-06-02T04:53:00Z 2010-06-02T04:53:00Z Sad indeed. Mark 2010-06-02T04:53:00Z Marion Millin comment-28761 2010-06-01T23:33:54Z 2010-06-01T23:33:54Z "I do not think that developers are driving the concept of an "adult entertainment district" nor do I think that the nightclubs are the real problem -as such. My own experience with vandalism has made me rethink who and what is involved." That's fine. You haven't lived it. You can't say it doesn't exist because you "don't think" so. You are more than welcome to come to the MNA Board meetings -- and other community meetings -- and share perspectives and info. Solutions even. The other comments you've made are mistaken -- taking personally comments that were more general. I did not accuse you as you seem to think. If possible another read might show you that. Sorry if it wasn't clear. "Your comment smacks of the self entitled elitism that is part of the problem, trying to paint Midtown and residents in an ugly and inaccurate way. That attitude, whether you intended or not, is a big part of the disconnect and causes of problems for Midtown neighborhoods -- businesses and/or residents." "Smacks of" as in "sounds like" as in NOT an ACCUSATION. The truth is, self entitled elitism enabled by those who for years have been "trying to paint Midtown and residents in an ugly and inaccurate way" STILL is a big part of the problem, the disconnect. "Whether you intended or not" as in NOT an ACCUSATION. As in: this is reality for Midtown overall and those who've lived it are working on addressing it. You are more than welcome. "Heck, I'm a member of the MNA (which seems mostly like a bunch of people who live around Sutter Hospital and who like to bitch about parking)." Wrong. "If your agenda is to pin all of Midtown's ills on the nightclubs and other late-night business then I'm sorry for pointing out that, from my experience, the vandalism problems came from unrealated sources." It was the former city manager's agenda and he's gone now. Be interesting to see if some of the same players who turned Midtown neighborhoods into drink/trash/dash zones will migrate up to Roseville after him, to spread their empires. Or head downtown where the new bar scene is getting cranked up. His agenda and the lawlessness and blight that descended on Midtown b/c of an out of control bar scene was enabled by the business boosters and media portraying Midtown in a negative (dark) light with statements and attitudes like this: "... front door, which had a sticker on it that read "Keep Midtown Janky", and confronted the residents who denied any wrongdoing and were obviously hopped up on speed... I think the bigger problem are the "low-rent" types who enjoy living in a junky, ugly environment and are bent on keeping Midtown down at their level." All that does is reinforce the Us vs. Them and that problematic arrogance of some newcomers. "Problematic arrogance" that includes in too many cases, buying vintage, historic and even Historic Landmark properties and completely scouring the historic landscape, old and rare trees, shrubs, habitat, history, cooling/shade -- EVERYTHING obliterated down to the dirt. This includes in some cases illegal cutting of city-owned street trees and Heritage Trees. The real shame is that often what is put in afterward is generic landscaping that doesn't reflect the cultural heritage of the surrounding properties, replace the habitat or provide shade (especially if the replacement is a parking lot). It sounds like you may have interests in the aesthetic aspect of Midtown issues -- there are many ways to get involved, in historic preservation, protecting trees, obtaining that street lighting, etc. MNA is an excellent place to start. Marion Millin 2010-06-01T23:33:54Z Marion Millin comment-28760 2010-06-01T23:04:56Z 2010-06-01T23:04:56Z Good questions. You "haven't read" because the media is complicit in hiding the reality. The stories have been told by numerous residents in numerous neighborhoods ever since implementation of the (then) city manager's agenda to develop Midtown by drawing people here to drink and play and bail to the suburbs, several years ago. Since it came from the top at City Hall and lots of lawbreaking was condoned, the problems -- and crime -- that resulted were mostly under- or non-reported by the media, except for the most dramatic: rapes, murders, stabbings, shootings. The business boosters worked hard to hide the impacts with fluff pieces in the media, dismissing the concerns of residents. All of this created a climate of lawlessness that yes -- coincides with the recent phenomenon of tree vandalism as described. This is a body of years of "evidence and face-to face interaction." Unless you were involved with the neighborhoods associations or living it yourself, you might not be aware of it at all. The damage done -- including the misperceptions and lawlessness -- is now being worked on by the community, with the city and business group, under new city management. Markes statement "I begin to realize that there are some people who see improvements to Midtown as some sort of threat to their ‘way of life" based on one home with one bumpersticker and the assumption that they did the vandalism because it stopped it just that -- assuming. Focusing on that anecdotal "evidence" while dismissing the bigger picture is short sighted. Marion Millin 2010-06-01T23:04:56Z hula57 comment-28752 2010-06-01T21:38:02Z 2010-06-01T21:38:02Z I find this so sad that , the area in which you speak is still having problems.Some 25 to 27 years ago I lived in that area Around the 20th and G street vacinity. If the area was any thing now like it was then it was VERY dark and little or no street lighting. Even around Sutters fort area and another part of town I lived in on Capitol Ave. was dark all the way across and over to Alahambra and H. Streets. It's sad to think that Sacto being the capitol has stayed complacient all these years later. One think that I loved about sacto was all the trees. It made it feel more like home to me. Because here in Louisville, like in Sacto we are and were part of the Olmsted Act and have many , many beautiful old trees and parks that fell into his plan. It's a very sad thing. hula57 2010-06-01T21:38:02Z 123 comment-28744 2010-06-01T18:54:35Z 2010-06-01T18:54:35Z I think Markes makes some excellent comments. I too live and work in Midtown and didn't feel like he was attacking me as a lowlife scum. Unless someone has witnessed the vandalism and then followed the perpetrator back to his/her home (and so far, I haven't read that residents or police have actually caught/arrested anyone), can we really assume who's responsible for these deplorable acts? At least Markes has seen evidence and had some face-to-face interaction involving his experience with vandalism. 123 2010-06-01T18:54:35Z Mark comment-28736 2010-06-01T17:18:54Z 2010-06-01T17:18:54Z Marion just how haven't I "live it"? I'm a Midtown resident who lives a few blocks from 20th and K. Obviously, I'm not painting all Midtown residents in an ugly and inaccurate way -but some of my Midtown neighbors are janky lovers. Since you think I'm such an elitist jerk, why would I lump myself in with "those people"? Wouldn't I be living in El Dorado Hills or somewhere? Self-entitled? Yeah, I guess I feel entitled to plant things and not have they ripped up and pee'd on, I feel etitled to live in a community where beauty, art and culture are valued and people are respected. And if by elitism you mean my tastes run a bit contrary to the "ghetto chic aesthetic", then call me an elitist. The reality is that the people you are defending in a twisted reverse-snobery way are they one's who feel self-entitled and superior. I just like trees and clean streets and walls without scribble on it. Your comments about my so-called disconnect is really ridiculous. I've been pretty involved in my neighborhood. I live and work in the same hood. Heck, I'm a member of the MNA (which seems mostly like a bunch of people who live around Sutter Hospital and who like to bitch about parking). If your agenda is to pin all of Midtown's ills on the nightclubs and other late-night business then I'm sorry for pointing out that, from my experience, the vandalism problems came from unrealated sources. The reason the the streets are so poorly lighted is because the city ripped out many of the old lampposts years ago. And to get new ones the property-owners must be contacted and a majority agree to pay for them. Since most of the property-owners in these areas do not live in the neighborhood it's hard for a busy Joe Blow like myself to get in contact with all the owners. Besides most think they already pay too many taxes and they won't pay for them anyway. That's where the the city comes in. Since it's a matter of public safety and supporting local businesses. The city should create an assessment district and force the property-owners to share the cost of installing new street lights. Mark 2010-06-01T17:18:54Z Marion Millin comment-28714 2010-06-01T07:08:48Z 2010-06-01T07:08:48Z "I do not think that developers are driving the concept of an "adult entertainment district" nor do I think that the nightclubs are the real problem -as such." Markes, that's because you haven't lived it and yes, vandalism on street trees has a lot more to do with Midtown mayhem by liquored up "chowderheads" on their way home to the suburbs. Your comment smacks of the self entitled elitism that is part of the problem, trying to paint Midtown and residents in an ugly and inaccurate way. That attitude, whether you intended or not, is a big part of the disconnect and causes of problems for Midtown neighborhoods -- businesses and/or residents. "Much of Midtown- and in particular the higher-pedestrian areas are very poorly lit. I’ve never been in a city this size with such dark urban streets- except maybe in the Third World." That's because the City Council supports lighting Midtown alleys to benefit a few private property owners (coincidentally at the location of the MBA's offices) rather than lighting central city streets. Marion Millin 2010-06-01T07:08:48Z Mark comment-28660 2010-05-31T01:52:25Z 2010-05-31T01:52:25Z I do not think that developers are driving the concept of an "adult entertainment district" nor do I think that the nightclubs are the real problem -as such. My own experience with vandalism has made me rethink who and what is involved. A couple of years ago I planted street trees and did a lot of landscaping out in front my business which is in the heart of Midtown. Then someone started to rip out my plants and spray graffiti on the walls. This went on for several months and every time I replaced the plants and cleaned the walls. Then one day as I walked past a house just a couple of blocks from my business I noticed all my plants piled up under the stairs. I walked up to the front door, which had a sticker on it that read "Keep Midtown Janky", and confronted the residents who denied any wrongdoing and were obviously hopped up on speed. After that confrontation the vandalism stopped. I’ve also been yelled at for trying to improve the neighborhood and I’ve talked to taggers who were proud of their spraywork. I begin to realize that there are some people who see improvements to Midtown as some sort of threat to their ‘way of life’. Of course, drunken chowder-heads are a problem but honestly I think the bigger problem are the "low-rent" types who enjoy living in a junky, ugly environment and are bent on keeping Midtown down at their level. As for the trees, the city could do what many other cities have done for years- and put a protective metal support around newly planted trees until they able to withstand the assaults. Also here’s a novel idea- how about providing proper urban lighting for our streets? Much of Midtown- and in particular the higher-pedestrian areas are very poorly lit. I’ve never been in a city this size with such dark urban streets- except maybe in the Third World. Studies and experience have shown that well-lighted streets discourage vandalism. Unfortunately, councilmembers and the MBA seem unable to grasp these two concepts despite repeated calls for both. Mark 2010-05-31T01:52:25Z Marion Millin comment-28622 2010-05-30T16:48:44Z 2010-05-30T16:48:44Z This piece brings the issues to the public attention. Dale made the suggestions of what can be done about it in the article (See above). And the issue HERE IS tree damage. As Dale said in a comment" "Vandalism in general is very old but newly planted tree destruction in Midtown is very recent. The fact that 26 out of the 29 occurred in the central city is indicative of something being different going on here, and I agree with Wendell's assessment. But whatever the reasons, it must stop for the good of all." Thomas Wendel: "Your comment points out why the developer-driven concept of a central city that focuses on drawing visitors to an "adult entertainment district" (as opposed to a residential community that drives it's own economy) most often results in urban blight." Dale has done much more than "complain" on behalf of the community for decades. There are many ways for you to get informed and involved. Start with your neighborhood association or visit the CityofSacramento.org web site to find it. The codes you are asking about are available there also. Marion Millin 2010-05-30T16:48:44Z Marion Millin comment-28623 2010-05-30T16:43:42Z 2010-05-30T16:43:42Z Related Tree Photos at this link: http://www.sacramentopress.com/headline/28157/World_Class_City_Of_Trees Marion Millin 2010-05-30T16:43:42Z Ahsan Awan comment-28618 2010-05-30T08:45:37Z 2010-05-30T08:45:37Z While I get the community concern and the environmental issues, I'd like to know more about the civil and criminal penalties. I'd like to see photos of the graffiti and know if that has been reported to the SPD for analysis. I'd also like to know more about proposed solutions. It's not enough to just point out a problem because it comes across like a complaint. What do you suggest be done about it (beyond the obvious in case vandalism is witnessed)? This goes beyond trees. It includes cars, bikes, walls, etc. The issue isn't tree damage as much as it is vandalism in general. People need to respect every aspect of midtown, especially if they are visitors to the area. Furthermore, although ignorance of the law is no excuse, these people need to be deterred - at least to some degree - by being made aware of what's in store for them if they choose to vandalize. Ahsan Awan 2010-05-30T08:45:37Z Roni Deutch comment-28522 2010-05-28T18:31:08Z 2010-05-28T18:31:08Z Great article. It's important to show that these actions affect more than just the city's aesthetics. Roni Deutch 2010-05-28T18:31:08Z Dale Kooyman comment-28178 2010-05-26T20:22:16Z 2010-05-26T20:22:16Z No, I wanted to but do not have that capability. The morning after was a great time for 21st & J because the new Elm tree was hanging doubled over where the trunk had been twisted--the blank space remains now because UFS removed the remains. One of the new Oaks on K just east of 21st was cut in half. The pistachio (I believe it is ) on 19th & J outside the Plum Blossom restaurant on the corner has been repeatedly attacked by someone ripping the new little limbs off. Dale Kooyman 2010-05-26T20:22:16Z Dale Kooyman comment-28188 2010-05-26T17:06:10Z 2010-05-26T17:06:10Z Vandalism in general is very old but newly planted tree destruction in Midtown is very recent. The fact that 26 out of the 29 occurred in the central city is indicative of something being different going on here, and I agree with Wendell's assessment. But whatever the reasons, it must stop for the good of all. When I saw the top of the little tree hanging over it was like seeing a partially decapitated head dangling from its trunk. Tree graffiti vandalism has occured off and on but has been more frequent recently. The tagging attack (well over a hundred new) this last weekend may have been payback I've heard for prior vandal arrests but an overly sympathetic and irresponsible judge let the offenders loose to do damage in the community again. There are as you may know many who believe that tagging public property should not be a crime because it is a freedom of expression issue. Dale Kooyman 2010-05-26T17:06:10Z Steven Bourasa comment-28183 2010-05-26T16:36:08Z 2010-05-26T16:36:08Z Vandalism is an age old problem, for urban areas, and midtown trees are not the only victim. I have seen drunken guys climbing a streetlight and knocking off the decorative "glass" top, only to run away into the night. In another occurrence, passer-byes smashed my neighbor's window for no apparent reason. Also, tagging is out of control; you can find samples on garbage cans, houses, businesses, etc. Steven Bourasa 2010-05-26T16:36:08Z Suzanne Hurt comment-28180 2010-05-26T16:24:37Z 2010-05-26T16:24:37Z Thanks for such a great piece on an important community topic. Small, young trees were killed by someone who snapped the trunks on I Street between 27th and 28th, next to Hart Senior Center. New ones have been planted in their place. Suzanne Hurt 2010-05-26T16:24:37Z Dale Kooyman comment-28179 2010-05-26T16:23:03Z 2010-05-26T16:23:03Z I don't, but your council person's staff can find out. Thanks for asking. Please let us know if you are able to get that information. Dale Kooyman 2010-05-26T16:23:03Z Denise Coleman comment-28173 2010-05-26T15:54:17Z 2010-05-26T15:54:17Z I can think of few things more deplorable.Obviously the cretans that do this kind of thing don't live in Midtown. Does anybody know the penalty for vandalizing a tree? Denise Coleman 2010-05-26T15:54:17Z Richard Hanson comment-28170 2010-05-26T15:43:12Z 2010-05-26T15:43:12Z You've got a City Council obsessing about Arizona while neglecting situations like this that drive customers and tourists from Sacramento. Richard Hanson 2010-05-26T15:43:12Z Thomas Wendel comment-28161 2010-05-26T15:02:14Z 2010-05-26T15:02:14Z Your comment points out why the developer-driven concept of a central city that focuses on drawing visitors to an "adult entertainment district" (as opposed to a residential community that drives it's own economy) most often results in urban blight. Thomas Wendel 2010-05-26T15:02:14Z David Watts Barton comment-28135 2010-05-26T14:10:32Z 2010-05-26T14:10:32Z Dale, do you have any photos to illustrate this story? I'm assuming you don't, which is a shame, because it'd be a great lead story, but I can't do that without a photo. If you have any, please email them to sacramento press as soon as possible. David Watts Barton 2010-05-26T14:10:32Z savemidtown comment-28104 2010-05-26T05:13:35Z 2010-05-26T05:13:35Z we are several blocks from a few bars and i have seen two young trees vandalized - essentially small trunks snaped and branches torn off. What kind of loser vandalizes trees? We also saw one tree ripped out entirely. Again - very lame. & most of this vandalism and tagging occurs Thurs through Saturday - no coincidence that it's the nights that draw people here who think of midtown as their playland they can ef up and then leave. It's going to come back and bite the businesses and developers who created this when Midtown is no longer a safe place to be. savemidtown 2010-05-26T05:13:35Z Dale Kooyman comment-28096 2010-05-26T03:51:19Z 2010-05-26T03:51:19Z Very true Marion. Another action we can take, whether tenant or homeowner, is that when the city plants a tree be sure to check regularly to see if it is getting enough water. While new trees are on the watering route, sometimes the water runs off instead of into the root system and the leaves begin to wilt from lack of water in the root system. Another thing is that city watering only lasts two to three years after planting, so once UFS no longer waters, tenants or homeowners can help the tree to grow much faster if it will deep water once every 10 days or two weeks. Do NOT deep water every two or three days because that is too much water and can drown the roots. Dale Kooyman 2010-05-26T03:51:19Z Marion Millin comment-28086 2010-05-26T03:19:53Z 2010-05-26T03:19:53Z Excellent piece. Thank you, Dale. Worth mentioning also that the City's Urban Forest Services has removed many of our large heritage elm trees in recent years. They are paying attention to planting in preparation of large tree removal and staggering growth cycles, so that young trees are already established and growing up when larger trees have to be removed. The streets you mentioned had several differently-timed plantings going all in a row. Those destroying the youngest of them are doing much more damage than to just that one tree. Also, folks, don't put signs on trees. It's illegal, it damages trees and just don't do it. Marion Millin 2010-05-26T03:19:53Z Justin Cox comment-24906 2010-04-16T03:47:44Z 2010-04-16T03:47:44Z Damn good SEO timing for this article. Justin Cox 2010-04-16T03:47:44Z Christa Trinchera comment-22271 2010-02-15T18:53:37Z 2010-02-15T18:53:37Z God's amazing creatures. The are truly and expression of HIS love. Christa Trinchera 2010-02-15T18:53:37Z Dale Kooyman comment-19829 2009-12-24T19:14:54Z 2009-12-24T19:14:54Z Someone who knows me alerted me to your most recent posting. I have been gone for over a week. What you saw in the red zone, including the bags, I did NOT place there! Those wet leaves and plastic bags full of leaves came from the property owner across the street. They were carried and heaped there by the six foot four former football line backer and his muscular helper. They accumulate (year round from the city trees surrounding his property--wet in winter) on the top of his building. He places some in bags and brings them down the ladder on to the back deck, floor by floor. There were also leaves from his back yard, sidewalks and gutters in front of his tenants as there are today. I guess you didn't notice the trees in front of his property! Did you notice that there are never any leaf piles of any size on the side of the street abutting his property? He does not want to limit parking for his tenants' (one of whom you know well) customers and asked if he could put them on my side of the street. Being a good neighbor, I said he could, and he has ever since he bought the property. Once again, you did not have all the information when you stated falsely that I carried the leaves there. In the future make sure you have all the facts, which so few of the container advocates have. So you owe me an apology and correction for spreading false information on this site and to you your fellow supporters. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-24T19:14:54Z Gabriel Frazee comment-19673 2009-12-20T14:19:58Z 2009-12-20T14:19:58Z What the hell? Dale, I'll again default to my usual responses: A) If it can happen in every other city I've ever lived in (several dozen in six different states), it can happen here. B) If you, or anyone else, is unable to do something, it's all a matter of asking for assistance or hiring someone to do the work for you.\ Your "which is what you are homeowners to do" statement confuses me, I'm assuming you mean that it's only homeowners that have to deal with any of this. Well, I'm a renter, and I deal with this on my own. I also assist a friend (who is a homeowner) with her yard waste because she isn't able bodied enough to deal with it (it's called "community"). When one, for any reason whatsoever, is unable to do something on their own, they hire someone to do it for them (it kind of makes the world go round). For example (since you seem to be all about examples), please visualize a technologically declined individual getting a virus on their computer. In this world, one has to have one to get by, even to interact with their elected officials they need one to get by. Now, what does this technologically declined individual do? Do they change the world and make everyone go back to a pen and paper, fax machine, whatever? No, they hire someone to assist them in removing the virus from their computer. You seem to think that having to put your yard waste into a bin is the end of the world failing to realize that by NOT putting yard waste into a bin you're making your world worse. More smog, more flooding, more mosquitoes, more dangerous roads, etc. Really, I don't want to stop with just putting yard waste into bins. I want to continue this change along. I want any street that is a designated bike route or that has a marked bike lane to have parking restrictions on garbage days so that their bins are place on the curb and NOT in the bike lane. Visualize, if you will, driving your car down the street (I'm sorry, let's make that "speeding in your car down the street" as 99.9% of the motorists do not abide by the speed limit) on a random evening, you round a corner and BLAM, you smack headlong into a dumpster that has been placed in the middle of the lane. That, Dale, is what cyclists in Sacramento face every day despite it being against the State law and City law. I've spoken to SPD about this, about residents placing their waste bins and yard waste piles in the bike lane and on designated bike routes (where they have to be placed or they wont get picked up) and they told me what I already knew, that it IS against the law. Now, why aren't they doing anything? Well, their response is "since we didn't see who put it there, we can't do anything about it". So what we have is a city requiring it's citizens to break both State and City law and the citizens having to hope that an officer does not see them do this. So I'm sorry, Dale, if I want some change in this city. I'm sorry if I want the city to NOT force it's citizens to break the law. I'm sorry if I want the city to NOT waste money paving the roads more frequently due to damage form the claw, by having to have two trucks instead of one, by having to send out crews to clear clogged drains. You want a livable city Dale? So do I. I'd like to be able to ride my bike in a bike lane without fear of crashing into a pile of yard waste or into a waste bin. I'd like to be able to walk to the corner store in the rain without having to go a half block out of my way to avoid a massive puddle caused by a clogged drain, I'd like to have a Summer without mosquito bites caused by the standing water due to clogged drains. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-20T14:19:58Z Gabriel Frazee comment-19671 2009-12-20T09:49:13Z 2009-12-20T09:49:13Z So Dale, if you're so against containerized yard waste, why does your current yard waste pile (placed in the street DAYS before it will even get picked up) contain containers? On my ride to work this evening I noticed that you had several bags of waste covered by loose leaves placed out for "claw" pick up. This somewhat renders your concerns moot as you obviously are able bodied enough to place your ward waste in a container, don't suffer a leaf allergy keeping you from getting too close to your yard waste, etc. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-20T09:49:13Z Gabriel Frazee comment-19587 2009-12-19T12:33:03Z 2009-12-19T12:33:03Z Um, grow up? Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-19T12:33:03Z Gabriel Frazee comment-19586 2009-12-19T12:32:35Z 2009-12-19T12:32:35Z No Dale, you are proving my point ... If this law enables me to ride my bike in the bike lane for 10 months out of the year, then I'm one step closer to being able to ride my bike in the bike lane for 12 months out of the year. The irony in this battle is that it's ILLEGAL to block a bike lane; I've contacted SPD regarding this and they can't/wont do anything about the waste piles/bins in the bike lane because they didn't see who actually put them in the bike lane. So what we have is a City service requiring citizens to break the law because they know that the odds of the police seeing them doing it are astronomical. So yes, Dale ... you've proved my point while promoting the breaking of a State law. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-19T12:32:35Z Gabriel Frazee comment-19263 2009-12-14T01:16:22Z 2009-12-14T01:16:22Z First off, you're using an image of a street without bike lanes to make a point about bike lanes which just doesn't add up. Beyond that, as a life long bicycle commuter, I (and ever bicycle commuter I have spoken with) would much prefer having a container in the bike lane as opposed to a leaf pile because a container is actually visible from a way off as opposed to a pile of yard waste which you can't see until you're up on it (I'm speaking of night riding here, and yes I do use a bike light). Furthermore, currently residents put their piles of yard waste out on whatever day they do their yard work and there that pile sits until the claw comes through; but with containers, they would not be put out until they are actually going to get picked up. So instead of never knowing if/when there is going to be a pile of yard waste in my path, we'd go to knowing exactly when/where there's going to be a container in my path. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-14T01:16:22Z Robert Horowitz comment-19113 2009-12-10T23:07:12Z 2009-12-10T23:07:12Z This article is long on emotion and unsubstantiated allegations, and short on fact. The part about asthma sufferers is laughable. Putting greenwaste into a covered bin is bad for asthma, but sweeping it into a pile which blows in in the wind and gets run over by vehicles is not? You got any scientific evidence for that??? The author's response to comments indicates he is not any more interested in contradicting opinions than the people he has criticized in his "article" There are many strong arguments in favor of bins. Very few good ones, in my opinion, for keeping the claw. I'm with Gabriel and Beerzie, let's have the election and let the chips... er the leaves, twigs and branches... fall where they may. Robert Horowitz 2009-12-10T23:07:12Z Steve Vicente comment-19075 2009-12-10T07:27:04Z 2009-12-10T07:27:04Z I will cut down my tree if I'm forced on a bin. Eat that green-freak eco-warriors! Steve Vicente 2009-12-10T07:27:04Z Dale Kooyman comment-19063 2009-12-10T03:57:55Z 2009-12-10T03:57:55Z A personal attack would have been "you need to take a course in remedial writing . . ." AND "The issue also requires writing skills in order to articulate the complexities and far reaching adverse effects which you don't have. I didn't say either. The number of times the words "you" or "your" is irrelevant. What you wrote (oh, my, I used that word again) I revise to passive "what was written is not "merely disagreeing" so further discussion is a waste of time. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-10T03:57:55Z beerzie comment-19032 2009-12-09T22:18:16Z 2009-12-09T22:18:16Z Not sure I buy that. Whatever. It was not my intention to attack you. I was criticizing your article, which is not the same: "This article is so scattered and disorganized it is barely readable." Perhaps it would be better if it said: "This writer is so scattered and disorganized he is barely readable...I felt like I was walking into the middle of an argument, and a not very clearly articulated one at that."? I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way, but if you read my comment, I am criticizing the work and not the man. This is the nature of intellectual debate. It may also point to a major failing of a community "newspaper", in that the work does not get fully edited or reviewed by an objective outsider before publication. You see, give and take is part of the normal process, and it has its advantages: the work is improved, and the writer learns to take criticism as a vehicle for improvement, not as a personal "accusations". (I am "accusing" you of...what exactly? Being incompetent? That was not my intention, and I am sorry if I was unclear.) You also say that "...from nearly the first sentence stated your bias. When that attitude is demonstrated there is no basis for meaningful exchange of ideas or opinions." "II live in this area and would like to see the bins implemented." So, you closed your mind because my opinion disagreed with yours. I don't see how merely disagreeing with someone demonstrates a lack of basis for the exchange of ideas. I thought it WAS the exchange of ideas. No? As far as your reply not being a personal attack, I think you may have lost your perspective. You use the pronouns "you" or "your" seven times; I did not use them once. Please reread your comments and reconsider their possible meanings. It my be useful for me to reword a couple of your comments and see what you think: "The issue also requires writing skills in order to articulate the complexities and far reaching adverse effects--something you may not have done heretofore." "Have you thought of taking a course in remedial writing, reasoning, and comprehension?" Do these consider these personal? I would. One last point. I can tell from this and other articles that you are passionate about the problems in your neighborhood, and I commend that. But if you want to get people to listen -- and come to your causes -- you may want be less hostile and thin-skinned. beerzie 2009-12-09T22:18:16Z Dale Kooyman comment-19018 2009-12-09T19:28:01Z 2009-12-09T19:28:01Z It is interesting that your concept of assertions you write about me and the article are not personal attacks. But IF you mean the following quotes: " (your?)", "MAY not have done heretofore." and " THOUGHT of taking a course . . .", you consider these to be "personal". No, these are not "personal". The first is a question and the other merely a possibility and the other is a question unlike your biased and stated opinion about the articles and their contents, which you stated as accusations. Your mind was made up from the onset and your dialogue has demonstrated that there are no facts which would change it. You are right about one thing though, you did come into the "middle of an argument" and from nearly the first sentence stated your bias. When that attitude is demonstrated there is no basis for meaningful exchange of ideas or opinions. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-09T19:28:01Z beerzie comment-19013 2009-12-09T17:21:09Z 2009-12-09T17:21:09Z Gabriel, thanks for the link. It is calm and well-reasoned, unlike this article. beerzie 2009-12-09T17:21:09Z beerzie comment-19012 2009-12-09T17:17:19Z 2009-12-09T17:17:19Z Huh. You really swayed me with your personal attacks. If you want people to listen to you, I suggest you tone down your rhetoric. beerzie 2009-12-09T17:17:19Z LDGK founder comment-19006 2009-12-09T15:00:38Z 2009-12-09T15:00:38Z we don't like being called vandals so don't call us vandals. we are artists and should be called by such name and treated like an artist instead of a criminal. i think it's bullshit that most graffiti artists that get caught get in more trouble than gang members. it really pisses me off that people don't understand that graffiti is an art. the only difference between graffiti and a painting is that graffiti is on a wall with spray paint and paintings are done with paint and hung on walls LDGK founder 2009-12-09T15:00:38Z Dale Kooyman comment-18988 2009-12-09T04:48:59Z 2009-12-09T04:48:59Z No, it doesn't prove your point. Your one size-fits-all assumption doesn't apply. What you saw on G will continue during the proposed two month of claw pickup. Further, during the other 10 months the waste bin will be placed in the bike lane beyond the parked cars from the night before until pick up the next day and/or until people get home from work as they are now in South Side, Newton Booth Poverty Ridge, etc. During the two months of the year when most of the leaves fall, there will still be claw services so the homeowners getting the rate break for putting waste in their bins will also be getting the excess picked up by the claw--just as they were before they volunteered to containerize. Please refer to the comment from an East Sac resident and my relating the experience of a friend in the south area whose "volunteer" neighbors who also take advantage of both services. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-09T04:48:59Z Dale Kooyman comment-18976 2009-12-09T00:52:34Z 2009-12-09T00:52:34Z Have you tried putting a milk carton, empty coffee can, newspaper, magazines or fliers into the smallest recycling bin? Or small kitchen garbage bag into the smallest garbage bin? Both effortless and very easy to do. But it is naive and uniformed to compare that to the much greater work of gathering up the city's tree droppings year round, which is what you are homeowners to do. Are you not able to see the difference? To help you, please visualize an elderly homeowner asking, each week "assistance" from you, the tenants in the apartment houses next door or someone walking down the street to gather up into a box or dustpan the leaves, twigs, sticks, and other debris (see the article) then use their saw to saw up the small branches into two foot-long pieces dump into the 90 gallon "green" waste bin. You know the answer than any one of those would give. You only helped your neighbor with her yard waste? Yard waste is very little of what most of us have. But that is good of you to do that small amount for her. Will you be helping that neighbor each week to do all her yard, sidewalks, parking strip and gutters from now on for free? What if you move? Your neighbor didn't have you to ask or another her neighbor said, "see you later?? Oh, yes, we are all well aware of how long "people" have been pushing for the yard waste long before a year ago but had a chorus of opposition, so "they" secretly went around the most affected this time, using city budget, and fake phony environment as excuses. Bikers really need to stop thinking about themselves and consider the everyone in the community. My neighbor bikers are considerate, and they don't agree with you or the person who headed up this effort.. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-09T00:52:34Z Dale Kooyman comment-18965 2009-12-08T21:50:52Z 2009-12-08T21:50:52Z Yes, the article is long, probably beyond the usual short soundbites you are used to, so makes it hard for you to concentrate. The issue also requires critical thinking skills in order to understand the complexities and far reaching adverse effects--something you may not have done heretofore. It is clear from your comment that you equate dropping a small bag of kitchen garbage into the garbage bin or a magazine or milk carton one at a time over a period of a week into the recycling bin to raking, sweeping the city's tree droppings, sticks, boards and human litter (yours?) on the sidewalks, park strips and gutters into piles and then lift all of that box by box or whatever container is available to gather and then dump into the proposed nearly shoulder-high 90 gallon containers. Have you thought of taking a course in remedial reading, understanding and comprehension? Dale Kooyman 2009-12-08T21:50:52Z beerzie comment-18958 2009-12-08T20:58:08Z 2009-12-08T20:58:08Z I live in this area and would like to see the bins implemented. There would be more parking and less mess, and less hazards for bicyclists. The handicapped or those who need assistance could employ the same method they use for their other bins. (I personally take out the bins for elderly neighbors.) The claws are noisy and inefficient. And by the way, I agree with LittleTart. This article is so scattered and disorganized it is barely readable. It should at least start with some kind of summary of the issue. I felt like I was walking into the middle of an argument, and a not very clearly articulated one at that. beerzie 2009-12-08T20:58:08Z Gabriel Frazee comment-18922 2009-12-08T08:04:20Z 2009-12-08T08:04:20Z Dale, you're proving my point here. If yard waste was required to be containerized then residents wouldn't be putting their piles out in the street days before it was getting picked up, leaving it to be dragged and knocked around by cars, they'd be putting their bin out the day before it was getting picked up and it would remain in that container and not all over the street while awaiting pick up. But, like you, I also was out on a walk the other (though on Monday evening) and on my walk down G Street between 16th and Alhambra, there was not one single block that did not have a freshly deposited pile of yard waste blocking the bike lane (at one intersection, there was a pile that spanned from the curb, across the bike lane and into the lane of vehicular traffic; that pile was also blocking the crosswalk AND the handicap ramp and was taking up close to three parking spaces). Really, on my walk, there was never any less that two piles per block, per side of the street, that were blocking the bike lanes in violation of the CVC. So yes, I do notice details as I "whizz by". Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-08T08:04:20Z Gabriel Frazee comment-18921 2009-12-08T07:57:26Z 2009-12-08T07:57:26Z You missed my point: "We are all well aware of what we can/can't do and seek assistance for the things that we can't do on our own." If someone is unable to put their yard waste into a bin, they can always ask for assistance (and if they can't put yard waste in a bin, I'm wondering how they put their garbage into a bin?), I spent the entire day yesterday doing yard work for my friend who has had two spinal surgeries because she couldn't physically do it all herself. In regards to some of you not knowing anything about this, you must not be paying attention; I knew about people pushing for this ballot initiative over a year ago. Regardless, the fact remains that the current use of the claw, and residents piling their waste in the street, is a hazard to cyclists, damaging to the street (and costly to repair), harmful on the environment, etc. and for those reasons I am in favor of containerized waste. If any of you would like more information on any of this, I encourage you to check out http://www.sacbike.org/greenwaste/ Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-08T07:57:26Z TotalDerelict comment-18837 2009-12-07T20:54:10Z 2009-12-07T20:54:10Z Geez, dus the vacoom street thingee pik up lil dogs? Thas not rit! TotalDerelict 2009-12-07T20:54:10Z Dale Kooyman comment-18805 2009-12-07T05:34:51Z 2009-12-07T05:34:51Z Sorry to hear of your physical condition. Apparently it does not limit your riding a bicycle and if you were a home owner, would not limit your containerizing tree waste. It sounds like your mother's condition did not prohibit her from containerization either. Others are not so fortunate. However, in spite of your recognition that people have physical limitations, you still dismiss those limitations as a reason why they are unable to containerize. Again, you misinterpret. I did not say the claw was a civil rights or ADA issue. You wrote, flippantly I thought, if you don't like it, then vote against it and the majority wins. As soon as you introduced that majority rule concept, I pointed out that such rules have been opposed and won in the courts because the majority sometimes imposes rules with which some people are physically unable to comply or the requirement is unjust. I too have never lived in a city where the claw was used. However, none of those cities like SF, D.C. Chicago, Long Beach (all in the city centers when I lived there) had that many deciduous trees and the city swept the streets. I just called friends and relatives who live in nine different cities in Calif, Colorado and midwestern and eastern states. None of those cities have claws but almost all except Calif cities use a machine with a vacuum type apparatus that sucks up the gutter leaves and debris. That would be a welcome change here and would not require people to buy bags or the city to buy containers. Some of those cities I surveyed have burn days and folks put private tree or city tree leaves, sticks, branches in their metal burn barrels or loose in their yards burn area. There is an option to rake the leaves into large plastic sheets or bags and place them in the gutters for pickup. Sometimes, like this year, there is an early snow and one city's leaves leaves fell into the snow which is picked up by snow shovel machines. Only two of the nine required property owners to containerize in a bin for pick up. In one city, there is an arrangement with the nearby college that the students sweep and bag the city's leaves. So streets are cleaned and leaves collected in a number of ways throughout the country. But since we are second only to Paris in the number of trees none seemed to have the number of city trees that Sacramento midtown has. If you are concerned about mosquitos, you should have lived here before we had the claw when city tree leaves collected year round and clogged the gutters. There was more standing water then than in claw years. But only long time residents remember that. Your other arguments have little merit too. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-07T05:34:51Z thsas comment-18801 2009-12-07T02:56:50Z 2009-12-07T02:56:50Z Gabriel, I have never seen a claw used to pick up yard waste piles in the street before I moved to Sacramento, BUT I have also never been held hostage by trees on my property that apparently belong to the city. If the city dosen't want the rakings in the street, they should send someone over to rake my yard each week and take the stuff with them. thsas 2009-12-07T02:56:50Z Gabriel Frazee comment-18779 2009-12-07T01:07:06Z 2009-12-07T01:07:06Z I'm well aware physical limitations. I have (often debilitating) scoliosis, a shoulder that slips out of socket far too often due to an improperly set clavicle and a knee that needs to be replaced due to a childhood accident; my mother has advanced MS and has had multiple back surgeries; and a friend since grade school has already had two spinal surgeries. We are all well aware of what we can/can't do and seek assistance for the things that we can't do on our own. What gets me is that of all of the cities I have lived in, all across the US, Sacramento is the *only* city that requires their citizens to place their yard waste in the street and the only city whose citizens feels that it's their god given right. Environmental and finance issues aside, on the streets which do not have parking restrictions on the days that yard waste gets picked up, the residents must put their yard waste in the bicycle lane despite being in violation of the California Vehicle Code. In regards to the environment and finances issues: containerized yard waste prevents sewer overflow (the EPA ruled that the September '04 overflow was caused by yard waste clogging the system); containerized yard waste is billed at around 22% less than the on street pick up; streets need to be repaved/repaired more frequently due to pavement damage caused by the claw; using containers would lessen the amount of money spent by the city as only one vehicle would be needed (one vehicle would also improve air quality and reduce greenhouse gas emissions); not having the blocked drains caused by street dumping would reduce the mosquito population since there'd be less standing water, it would improve parking because residents wouldn't put their piles out whenever they feel like it but, instead, put out their container on the designated day; etc. etc. etc. But to say that this is a civil rights and/or ADA issue? If so, why do the vast majority of cities in the US have containerized yard waste? Like I said, this is the only city that I've ever heard of that does not have containerized yard waste. And if you want to bring up civil rights, I as a bicycle commuter, have every right to ride my bicycle down the bike lane without fear of that lane being illegally blocked. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-07T01:07:06Z Dale Kooyman comment-18774 2009-12-07T00:26:03Z 2009-12-07T00:26:03Z Did you read both articles or fithgenerationsacramento's comments? "Upset" does not begin to comprehend the problem. How much more background do you need for those who are opposed? Please read both again with whatever questions you have in mind to see if they are answered. Or direct them in your comments and I'll be glad to address them. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-07T00:26:03Z Dale Kooyman comment-18776 2009-12-06T22:53:21Z 2009-12-06T22:53:21Z Sounds like you didn't read both articles with any degree of understanding either. “…if [the handicapped] don't have the mobility to lift up yard waste then they most likely also don't have the mobility to rake the yard waste out into the street." Your conclusion couldn't be farther from the truth. Sadly, this attitude and belief shows how little the young and healthy really know about the various physical limitations people of any age can have, what caused those limitations and what such afflicted individuals can and cannot do without suffering pain or set backs. Although your statements are vague and general again, you seem to imply that "handicapped" means a person who is only mobile in wheel chairs. In fact, these folks' handicap is severest but they only comprise a small percent of those who have restrictive mobility. I will give you only one example. Have you ever heard of back malformations, injuries and surgery? Do you also know that aging normally exacerbates these conditions? These individuals differ greatly in what they can or cannot do without inflicting pain on themselves. Bending over to lift from ground or floor level , is one of the most damaging. The frequency and weight of what they lift are also factors. Further, turning or twisting with even a few pounds in their hands coupled with reaching, can trigger severe pain if not spinal disc de-location. However, merely pushing a broom or simple raking--minus the stooping bending maneuvers are very doable for many. Even such a simple thing we take for granted that no one would think could exacerbate a back situation is sitting. Some folks will dislocate their back from repeated and continuous sittings on very soft chairs, sofas or heavily padded seats--too little support. BUT others' backs cannot tolerate sitting on firm seats or straight or folding chairs. As to your vote comment. I do believe that is all you have to say. Certainly, it reflects your shallow knowledge of a complex and far reaching effect on others. It is likely that there is a majority who, like you, have no knowledge or sensitivity to other people, so yes the majority can win. That is why there are civil rights and ADA suits and resulting decisions rendered against the majority, That is also why the courts forced the city to spend millions of dollars to construct handicapped ramps when the city contended it did not have the money to accommodate their mobility. It is amazing how a little common sense and understanding can go along way toward solving disagreements. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-06T22:53:21Z Dale Kooyman comment-18772 2009-12-06T19:52:27Z 2009-12-06T19:52:27Z Gabriel, I just returned from a windy chilly morning walk. I saw numerous leaves in marked bike lanes. As I passed by those several blocks, I also saw cars parking and pulling away from the curbs. Tenants living on one corner apt. had raked the walks and park strip and dumped the small pile between two cars with part of the pile overlapping into the bike lane. I also saw large leaf piles that homeowner neighbors had raked up in front of their properties and dumped into the parking lanes. HOWEVER, I saw cars pulling away from the curb over the piles, and with their bumpers, effectively redistributed the pile into the marked bike lanes. One car's undercarriage had hooked onto something and was dragging it with him as he drove away, no doubt later depositing it in the street later on when it finally came loose. But as bikers whizz by, they wouldn't see those details as you probably didn't notice either. So in the future, don't assume that the gardeners or homeowners place leaves in the bike lanes but remember that cars may have moved part of a larger pile there. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-06T19:52:27Z fifthgensacramentan comment-18768 2009-12-06T18:36:50Z 2009-12-06T18:36:50Z Gabriel, did you happen to see the picture on the Bee Editorial? http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/story/2343463.html The one with the "claw" picking up the pile of lawn clippings...out in the street....beyond two parked cars....in a neighborhood with no parking restrictions? So are you OK with installing parking restrictions in all neighborhoods, so as to not have the green waste pile replaced with a "dangerous" bin out in the street and additionally facilitate faster pick-up of all containers-Or are you of the opinion that since the neighbors, who fought to get those bike lanes installed, for a multitude of reasons besides alternative mode commuting, including slowing traffic down and making auto and ped crossing of those streets safer in those residential neighborhoods-should also be the select few that are penalized with parking restrictions- to simply keep those bins out of the bike lanes on trash day for another select group of commuters? Now remember -You have two, one-way bike lanes on-one way streets-if your using them correctly and not going the wrong way-trash collection only occurs on one side of the street. OneMoreThing-As you have previously stated in another article, you rent, and based on your profile-live in or around Boulevard Park. So what attracted you to live there? Quiet, historic residential neighborhood adjacent to the job center of the downtown. You should have been here when it wasn't that, "rolled up" those do-it-yourself-er" sleeves and been part of the solution that created the renaissance of midtown-before the johnny-come-lately's- arrived. who now take credit for creating everything but the internet. Perhaps you'd have a better appreciation of the "ownership" that residents feel in creating those solutions and take great offense to proposed changes that do not include their input. fifthgensacramentan 2009-12-06T18:36:50Z Dale Kooyman comment-18769 2009-12-06T18:34:21Z 2009-12-06T18:34:21Z You have never seen me rake piles of leaves in the marked bike lanes! in fact I regularly sweep them OUT! I have many friends who are bikers and am considerate of them, just like bikers need to be considerate of others too! I do the same for the handicap ramps. But of course, that you would not want to see because it weakens your complaint. Where there are no marked bike lanes, I create piles at least two to three feet from the curb which is well within the parking lane--not the unmarked bike lane. I must allow that distance from the curb because drivers often careen their vehicles in toward the curb skidding into the leaf pile and mashing the mass against the curb which then either clogs the drains or causes rain or sprinkler water to stand in the gutter. Your one time experience flies in the face of my bike neighbors who say they rarely encounter piles of leaves in the marked bike lanes in midtown but do so on the narrow streets and rolled curb gutters in surrounding neighborhoods. They also say that they have had to dodge garbage and recycling cans parked in those lanes. You omit this fact. You make this broad generalized accusation that many people place the leaves out on the street you were riding, BUT you don't identify which street OR the block numbers. As to the spokes in your wheel, those were not taken out by leaves! Leaves alone do not do that damage. Those were any number of boards, slats or other litter, sticks, twigs, broken up branches, much of the latter which will not fit into the bins. But as a 33 year old renter you would not have to face that problem as well as the physical challenges for seniors, disabled and elderly that I mentioned in the article. Remember, you may get there one day. As I said, please be considerate of others. Incidentally, where were you when residents had to fight the city to get marked lanes installed as fithgensacramento states? Did you as a biker, help those homeowners who were being considerate of you? Dale Kooyman 2009-12-06T18:34:21Z Gabriel Frazee comment-18766 2009-12-06T09:24:44Z 2009-12-06T09:24:44Z Dale, street cleaning or not, the cities bike lanes ARE a danger to ride in because residents opt to put their piles of waste in the bike lane so as not to take up parking spaces (I've seen you do the same so don't try and deny this fact). Those that do put their piles against the curb, free of the bike lane, are wasting time as motorists looking for parking just drive over the piles which pushes the waste into the bike lane. The very first time I came to Sacramento, I was riding my bike from the train station to my friends house, riding through your very neighborhood, and I was taken out by a pile of yard waste that was in the bike lane on a street that DOES have street cleaning, yet that resident (and the majority of all the residents along the way) still put their yard waste in the bike lane. That one incident took out three spokes on my front wheel, tore off my front fender, ripped open my pannier, tore open my jacket and split the bar tape on my handlebars; well over $100 in damage (parts alone) to just my bike, my jacket cost me $280. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-06T09:24:44Z Gabriel Frazee comment-18765 2009-12-06T09:12:47Z 2009-12-06T09:12:47Z What the hell? Dale, I think your only valid argument here is that those that are handicapped wont be able to lift their yard waste into the bins but, even that isn't a valid argument as, if they don't have the mobility to lift up yard waste then they most likely also don't have the mobility to rake the yard waste out into the street. All I can say to you is, if you don't want to put your yard waste into a bin, then vote "no" when it's on the ballot. Last I checked, this is a democracy we live in and the majority wins. Gabriel Frazee 2009-12-06T09:12:47Z LittleTart comment-18764 2009-12-06T07:03:32Z 2009-12-06T07:03:32Z As a new resident to downtown Sacramento I would have liked a little more background and explanations about the controversy and the two sides. I don't really understand what the debate is about and would like a little clarification. Is the author upset at the idea of putting yard waste into a Green Bin rather than the street? LittleTart 2009-12-06T07:03:32Z Dale Kooyman comment-18763 2009-12-06T02:59:30Z 2009-12-06T02:59:30Z Shawn, I too heard about it after the committee made its decision--just by accident. No, they consulted with no resident/customer from the central city. As I understand it, the committee was organized by a bicycle advocate who contacted Edison Hicks, Solid Waste Supt. I believe that Cohn's office knew about the committee and possibly other council members, but I'm not sure about that. It did not include customers per se other than mosquito control and some other agency representative IF they happened to live in Sacramento, which I doubt. I can't find the email from the biker who organized it. Dale Kooyman 2009-12-06T02:59:30Z Shawn Eldredge comment-18760 2009-12-06T02:15:31Z 2009-12-06T02:15:31Z Bill , Shawn here , Your referrence to me and Mr cohn in this note is inappropriate. I am sure Mr Cohn would be as offended by your comment as I. This forum is for productive commentary . The personal attacks against individuals are not productive and will create division rather than solutions. Dale has obviously taken great care in the preparation of this article , both he and the subject matter deserves real discourse as it affects all residents of the city . I personally agree with Dale on this subject.As an inner city resident i love the ability to pile my green waste in the street as well, shutter at thought of the cities falling leaves going un collected ( as many residents will not voluntarily pick them up) I also agree that there are parts of the city that do not deserve to have to pay for street pick up / cleaning etc. when they dont need or recieve the services . There needs to be a comprehensive study on individual neighborhoods, additionally the Utility department , who wants to raise our rates further ,needs to be audited & overhauled (publicly) so we as rate payers can decide what services we are either willing to pay for or live without. Dale who or how was this comittee created ? I heard nothing of a comittee ? did they ask or consult with you or anyone you know ?... lots of questions & i will see you @ council (still in need of sp. chk.) sincerely Shawn Eldredge Shawn Eldredge 2009-12-06T02:15:31Z Steve Vicente comment-18745 2009-12-05T07:57:01Z 2009-12-05T07:57:01Z Keep the Claw! http://www.southsidepark.org/claw Steve Vicente 2009-12-05T07:57:01Z