This is a project even I would support...except the design of the cars suck.. they need to do retro style cars like SF has done on Market...otherwise it just looks like light rail.

exactly, great idea to combine west sac with downtown. go retro and put it in!

The cars in the renderings are just samples of what could be used, rather than the final style of cars. There are some advantages to using modern cars, especially low-floor cars that would allow ADA access without ramps. Also, these cars look a lot less like "light rail" in person--it's hard to judge by the renderings, but they are a lot smaller than LRVs, shorter, narrower and about half as long, more like the size of a bus.

Refurbished historic cars and replicas have their advantages too. The problem with historic cars is that they quite literally don't make 'em anymore, which means the supply is limited. A company called "Gomaco" builds replica streetcars, and they have some advantages like air conditioning that are more important in Sacramento, but that doesn't get around the ADA issue. San Francisco's fleet is a collection of restored historic vehicles from around the country, and one or two actual historic San Francisco streetcars, but kneeling buses also run along the F-Market line to transport the folks who are physically unable to get on the PCCs and Peter Witts of the Market Street Railway.

Personally I'd prefer to see a mixture of modern and historic cars. There are several actual Sacramento streetcars in unrestored condition nearby. Some belong to the Western Railway Museum and others belong to the Friends of Light Rail. I don't know for sure if they would be willing to part with them, but it would be pretty neat to see a historic single-truck Birney, a wooden California car, or a restored "Elverta Scoot" rolling around downtown! Regional Transit has one historic AC&F wood-body streetcar they break out for special occasions, it is always a treat to see downtown. The down side is that in regular service, these irreplaceable treasures would run the risk of damage and vandalism, kind of disappointing after a restoration job that would probably cost at least $1 million. On the other hand, the modern cars cost more like $3 million...

Not long ago I heard talk that the proposed line would be expanded into midtown.

Any word on that development?

The meeting tonight was basically to address the issue of how a streetcar line would affect Capitol Mall, and will be followed up in two weeks by a special meeting of the Preservation Commission. The issue will be heard by City Council next month, who will decide whether to pursue the current alignment plan or ask for more study to plan a different track alignment, at least on the Sacramento side of the river.

The current plan is still the alignment that will end at 15th Street, but the idea of an extension has been raised--it would be a separate decision than the current plan unless the City Council asks them to completely revisit the planned alignment. Because the streetcar plan can be built in stages, it is certainly possible for a future stage to extend into Midtown. However, the main obstacle to that is not politics or money but the Union Pacific tracks between 19th and 20th. In order to pass that line, they would most likely have to build a bridge over the tracks--and there is very little space for such a bridge.

The Peter Witts were operated in Milan, but they were actually built in Ohio.

Given the opportunity, Harry, I could talk trolley for quite a stretch--I even wrote a book on Sacramento's streetcars a while back. There are at least half a dozen Sacramento streetcars still around in various collections, including Sacramento Northern 62 (a Birney that is restored and operating at Rio Vista Junction, it operated on all three of SN's streetcar systems in Chico, Marysville/Yuba City, and Sacramento) and the SN "Elverta Scoot" (an unrestored car patterned after a common Los Angeles Railway design, converted for suburban service to Rio Linda and Elverta) plus a few others.

I think a couple of the F-line units are restored San Francisco cars: not the PCCs or Peter Witts, but the Jewett "Iron Monster" and a few other former Muni cars are part of the Market Street fleet. I don't see them in service very often, but I have been on a couple of their sister cars at the Western Railway Museum.

Muni 1040 is part of that fleet. Supposedly it is "the last PCC built' and sports Muni colors.

Great idea, but they need to bring it to 19th street, which is still before the tracks, but far enough into Midtown.

Patrick: I wouldn't rule it out. In Portland, for example, the first extension to their streetcar system was started before the original alignment was completed. Building a four-block extension from 15th to 19th would probably take about a month.

Dustin: Indeed! The park was originally called Oak Park, and was more of a garden park when the first horse-drawn streetcars arrived. The land company that developed Oak Park also owned the streetcar line, and provided the park as an amenity similar to East Park (now McKinley Park,) the then-private park that sat on the end of their competitor's streetcar line. Joyland was built after electrification and the consolidation of the city's streetcar lines under the Sacramento Electric, Gas & Railway Company: as an electric utility, the electrically powered "Joyland" park served as a destination to drive streetcar traffic, a customer for electrical services, and a great advertisement to residents about the benefits of electricity.

To run streetcars to Oak Park today, the easiest way would be to utilize Light Rail lines from the Gold Line. One could either run a new streetcar line down 34th Street (which is wide enough to handle the traffic) to Broadway, or from 29th onto Alhambra (which is also wide enough: Alhambra Boulevard once carried freight trains, and short segments on its north and south ends were streetcar routes) to Broadway.

Running from the Blue Line would be more problematic, as once again you have to cross the WP mainline, which means a bridge. The old alignment through Curtis Park to Oak Park went down 21st to 2nd Avenue to 24th to 5th Avenue, so those are probably the only sufficiently wide streets now.

However, if one wanted to serve Southside Park and Land Park, it would be pretty easy to run a streetcar line south from Capitol through Southside and into Land Park: the old PG&E line ran down 10th Street past the cemetery and Edmonds Field (where Target is) and then down Riverside to the old public baths and William Land Park.

OMG. Why don't they put in a monorail like vegas? Cheaper, cleaner, faster. And it should extend to Sac State to link them together.

Check this out if you don't know: http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/MonoVs.html

Best of ideas! Sakamento streetkars is way to go. Good one Sakamento Press!!!

devedsmith:Who says monorails cheaper or cleaner than streetcars? They both run on electricity, so "cleaner" is hardly an issue. The page you linked compared LRV costs to monorails, claiming they are similar, but streetcars cost about 1/3 as much as LRV right-of-way, and are far faster to build (about 1 city block per week.) As Ben mentioned, monorails serve a different purpose than streetcars: they are intended to move people short distances (but farther than one can comfortably walk) through a neighborhood, interacting directly with the street. Monorails are better at carrying people longer distances at separated grade.

Think of it like the difference between a freeway and a city street: you can go longer distances faster on a freeway, but you can't stop frequently and interact easily with things off the right-of-way like you can on a city street. Streetcars are closer to bicycles and pedestrians in scale and intensity: they aren't intended to go very fast or very far, but they promote movement within a neighborhood--kind of a "pedestrian accelerator."

The Las Vegas monorail looks pretty much like a tourist gimmick: it goes from the Convention Center to a bunch of casinos, and that's about it...not much help to the people who actually live and work in Las Vegas.

Is it just me or does anyone else think $50-60 million is low? Does it cost the same to build a street car as it does light rail? If not, why?