A study to map out a streetcar route linking Sacramento to West Sacramento is expected to start this fall, according to city Transportation Department spokeswoman Linda Tucker. More than $400,000 in funding has been set aside for the study -- $310,000 from federal grant funds obtained earlier this year and $90,000 from local transportation funds, said Azadeh Doherty, a principal planner in the department. The current plan for the streetcar includes a path in West Sacramento, but does not lay... KathleenHaley William Burg comment-34076 2010-08-02T19:57:49Z 2010-08-02T19:57:49Z Curmudgeon: Historic streetcars are an option, but there are also modern new streetcars, and they are smaller than light rail vehicles but larger than buses. Modern streetcars are being considered because they have things like low floors (so no ramps are needed for ADA entry) and air conditioning (nice in this climate) but have a higher capacity for bikes, standees and wheelchairs in addition to seating capacity greater than a bus. Incidentally--plenty of historic streetcars had larger capacities than buses, unless you're talking about really small streetcars like Birney single-truck safety cars. RT can't "cannibalize" operating routes for new construction--operation and construction are separate budgets. For various reasons, there are funds for new construction but not operation, and funds for new construction cannot be used for operation. If RT gets funds to build, they can't divert that funding for operation on existing routes! So no, they aren't being "cannibalized," the state yanked the operating funding and there is no way to replace it. Flexibility is important in outlying suburban areas where growth is more dynamic, but Sacramento's central city has been around for 150 years and is unlikely to go away any time soon. Infill projects (like K Street) have suffered because of instability in transportation methods--a streetcar is a practical way to stabilize things. And if you want examples of transit-oriented infill, take a look at the Alexan apartments, built as TOD near the 29th Street light rail station, or the infill projects at 65th and Folsom near the 65th Street station, or CADA's projects near 13th and 16th Street. It has already happened! William Burg 2010-08-02T19:57:49Z Kevinmg33 comment-34073 2010-08-02T18:01:06Z 2010-08-02T18:01:06Z There is also an inherent rail bias. People use trains and rail because it's fairly certain where it is going, not the case with rubber wheels. Kevinmg33 2010-08-02T18:01:06Z TLeon comment-34068 2010-08-02T17:26:40Z 2010-08-02T17:26:40Z I agree the lack of solid commitment financially from Sacramento most likely didn't help but just remember that the grant program only funded 6 out of 65 applicants. TLeon 2010-08-02T17:26:40Z TLeon comment-34067 2010-08-02T17:02:24Z 2010-08-02T17:02:24Z Hey chuckle all you want but Mr. Burg is correct. Buses have not been succesful for short routes in the Central City. As in other Cities the Streetcar has proven to be a more popular urban transport than a bus because of the fixed route and better headways. The construction and operating costs are lower. Look it up. Lots of data out there on it. Streetcars will be smoother. No high speeds or major elevations changes than light rail. Streetcars, like the modern system in Portland,do have "gatekeepers". In other cities both tourists and locals use them to get from place to place. Meetings, lunches, etc. TLeon 2010-08-02T17:02:24Z Curmudgeon comment-34065 2010-08-02T15:53:19Z 2010-08-02T15:53:19Z Oh puhleeze. Greater capacity than a bus? Now you are talking about long light rail vehicles, not short historic streetcars, which are essentially buses with tracks. Nor has there been demonstrated that much bus ridership on the route. Meanwhile, RT has idle buses from budget cutbacks. If somehow money will materialize for the West Sac route, why not use RT's idle buses. Lower opertaing costs? Snort. Chuckle. The light rail record says otherwise....much higher capital costs. A smoother ride? Jerk, jerk, jerk goes the light rail (and my back). No better or worse than a bus. An idle bus which RT has to spare at that. Permanence and stability? Inflexibility and inability to adjust to commuter needs. Catalyze infill develoopment? *cough* K Street *cough*. Not happening. People like them more than buses? Buses at least have a "gatekeeper" that deters fare jumping smelly homeless and gangbangers. (Some streetcars may be designed to do same, a la San Francisco, but they don't carry more people than a bus and are essentially buses with tracks). The only way streetcars would be preferable is if outside tourists like them, a la San Francisco again. For commuters and locals? Don't make me laugh. It's bad enough that RT is going ahead with a Railyards LRT spur while cannibalizing a host of suburban commuter routes that led into downtown, or at least to Watt and I-80. Curmudgeon 2010-08-02T15:53:19Z William Burg comment-34064 2010-08-02T15:12:12Z 2010-08-02T15:12:12Z Because streetcars have greater capacity than a bus, lower operating costs, a smoother ride, and the presence of tracks provides a permanence and stability of route that buses can't deliver. They are proven to catalyze infill development and connect adjacent neighborhoods. Plus, people just like them more than buses. Consumer choice is important when it comes to transportation, as decades of automobile advertising has shown us. Perhaps you'd rather go "vroom vroom!" with your toy cars, but cities require a mixture of transportation types. Streetcars are a vital part of that mixture, one that we have been missing. They fill a necessary gap between light rail and buses. William Burg 2010-08-02T15:12:12Z Curmudgeon comment-34062 2010-08-02T14:27:05Z 2010-08-02T14:27:05Z If a streetcar stops ever couple of blocks, like a bus does, why not just run additional bus service? This seems like adults playing with electric trains.... Curmudgeon 2010-08-02T14:27:05Z Patrick J. comment-33991 2010-07-31T17:50:27Z 2010-07-31T17:50:27Z No I didn't mean end the line at 19th and Q, but that would be where the tracks meet the light rail tracks. Patrick J. 2010-07-31T17:50:27Z William Burg comment-33989 2010-07-31T16:28:49Z 2010-07-31T16:28:49Z The stop at 19th and Q would not be the end of the line--you cut a switch into the existing Blue Line tracks and continue back up Whitney Avenue to re-connect to Capitol at 8th Street. I think we have talked about this route before in a previous thread? And yes, the idea with streetcars is to stop every couple of blocks, like a bus does. The most recent West Sac plan was based on $25 million in funding from a federal grant, applied for by West Sacramento. West Sacramento has already agreed to tax itself to pay for much of their part of the streetcar system, but they aren't large enough to provide the lion's share of the funding. What they need is agreement from our side of the river--they probably lost that grant because they lacked a firm commitment from Sacramento over how our half would work. In the long run, having a streetcar system will let West Sacramento get dense enough to pull their own weight in future development. In the meantime, they are already taxing themselves to pay for it. Apparently we don't have the guts to do that. As to Capitol Mall, the answer is, well, don't do it like that. Instead of running the train down the center of Capitol Avenue (exactly where the Sacramento Northern's electric interurbans used to run) run them on the outer lanes of Capitol adjacent to the sidewalk. By using hangers at the curb edge, the wires don't visually obstruct the view of the Capitol or the grassy median of the Mall. It also means you can put the streetcar stops on the curbs, allowing multiple stops along Capitol Mall, instead of in the middle of the street. William Burg 2010-07-31T16:28:49Z Patrick J. comment-33987 2010-07-31T15:54:26Z 2010-07-31T15:54:26Z I was under the impression that a streetcar stops every block, two blocks at most. Patrick J. 2010-07-31T15:54:26Z Zen comment-33986 2010-07-31T15:35:11Z 2010-07-31T15:35:11Z The one thing left out about the streetcar talk in the media is who will pay for it. This study was not the result of a disagreement on the route as much as the problem of who pays. In the original route the City of Sacramento and properties around that route paid the lion's share of the cost while the economic development potential really was on the West Sac side of the line. Land owners balked and now we are studying the route options and the path of least resistance for a financing plan. I like the route for the the most part you suggest except the stop a the 19th and Q Site. You might as well wait to get to the 16th Street Station where the ped routes and destinations are better situated. The other problem is many people feel that going up Capitol Mall does not do the area justice visually with wires strung across the street. Zen 2010-07-31T15:35:11Z Patrick J. comment-33935 2010-07-31T02:53:23Z 2010-07-31T02:53:23Z I have a route: up captial mall, at 8th take the light rail tracks up K, at 13th go to J, Take J up to 19th(as far as you go without crossing the tracks,) 19th down to R (using the city owned lot at 19th and Q to build a transit stop/park.) Then it follows the already built light rail tracks back. Now Midtown, Downtown and the R street corridor are connected. It didn't even take me 400K to figure that out. Patrick J. 2010-07-31T02:53:23Z