The debate over the Sacramento Utilities Department's desire to use bins for green waste pickup has a familiar ring. This isn’t the first time green waste has been a hot topic in Sacramento. Green waste disposal was controversial as far back as 1977, when a fierce fight took place between those who wanted bins and those who sought to maintain on-the-street pickup. Utilities Department Director Marty Hanneman said that staff plan to bring the issue to the City Council on Jan. 21 or Jan. 28. S... KathleenHaley Rhys02 2009-12-01T04:01:22Z 2009-12-01T04:01:22Z

I hope all these folks that want to keep the claw realize they are subsidizing the service for businesses and multi-family units as well as McMansions in Placer and El Dorado counties. 1. I live in Oak Park and noticed when the city recently rolled out the bins, it didn't put any out at the churches, apartment and businesses that us commercial services for garbage. It occurred to me that i have been paying for their green trash removal for decades 2. Every morning as I leave for work, I am followed by cavalcade of gardening services pickup trucks on there way to Placer and El Dorado Counties. Every evening these pickup trucks return fully loaded and biulging at the seams with garden refuse, which they then dump in Oak park streets because it doesn;t cost them anything to do it here and it is not available in these counties. Finally to all the naysayers...ever hear of composting?? Where do you think the earth comes from when every year you meticulously clean every leaf from lawn and then have to apply chemicals because the plants have no renewing source of food.

Rhys02 2009-12-01T04:01:22Z Steven Bourasa 2009-12-01T02:17:35Z 2009-12-01T02:17:35Z

I compost in my midtown backyard. It works great if you mix the leaves 50/50 with grasses. I also add worms to help with composting. It takes a little over a year for the compost to turn into a nutrition-rich soil. Use this soil in planter boxes and potted plants. It is perfect for the home gardener and foliage enthusiast.

Steven Bourasa 2009-12-01T02:17:35Z StellaM 2009-12-01T01:44:56Z 2009-12-01T01:44:56Z

Steve V--your questions are the same that my neighbors and I are asking each other. The general attitude is that we want to do the right thing, but we're a little flummoxed at the moment. Our street right now has a pile of leaves in front of each lot (except mine, I still need to rake), and a couple people have filled their bins AND have the overflow pile next to it. I hope you won't cut down your tree, though...that's just too sad. I'll come hug it for you if you want.

StellaM 2009-12-01T01:44:56Z Dale Kooyman 2009-11-30T23:09:55Z 2009-11-30T23:09:55Z

Kathleen, please ask Hanneman and Waters where the 85,000 live who volunteered for the bins. The answer to that question is key as to the citywide feasibility and no city person has been willing to answer that. Do they even know? Very few live in the central city that is for sure. So far, everyone, including the city, seems to think that there are only private lawn cuttings and tree leaves to be containerized. In fact, the vast bulk of "green" waste, which is really brown leaves as the photo shows, is CITY TREE LEAVES dropping on central city streets and sidewalks year round. Oracle, please explain how you and other bin advocates compost the CITY tree's seed pods of various sizes, tree blossoms, twigs, branches, boards, nails, dog poop, human feces, dead rats, birds, squirrels and large amounts of litter consisting of plastic bags, flyers, magazines, newspapers, glass and plastic glasses and bottles, liquor and beer bottles, cans, coffee cups, half eaten food discarded in styrofoam and plastic take out containers, cigaret and candy wrappings/boxes--all whch accumulate in the gutters and clog the drains YEAR ROUND. Neither the city or commenters have given a thought either to seniors, disabled and those with back problems, leaf allergies and lung conditions, which hinder their being able to containerize. These people can often sweep this crap off sidewalks, park strips and into gutters but cannot and should not have to handle this disease laden waste and store it on their property. So Oracle, to you and other composting and containerization advocates I ask, if you insist on penalizing these people, why don't you volunteer to clean up all this polluted waste for them?

Dale Kooyman 2009-11-30T23:09:55Z Steve V 2009-11-30T22:05:12Z 2009-11-30T22:05:12Z

A couple questions for pro-bin folks: Question #1 - If you force folks on streets inundated with leaves onto a more cumbersome way to clean them up (bins)... do you really think our streets will be prettier? Put it this way - if I made you clean your toilet with a toothbrush, would you clean it as often? Question #2 - Since you pro-bin folks admit there are too many autumn leaves downtown to fit in a bin, and the claw would still be needed... doesn't this nullify all or most your proposed benefits of bins? Clogged drains just as likely, mosquitos still have hundreds of places to breed, bikes and cars have bins to dodge instead of leaves, twice the trucks still needed. Anyways, I'm staying with my plan to cut down my tree if I'm forced on a bin. I don't have space for a bin. Go green!

Steve V 2009-11-30T22:05:12Z cogmeyer 2009-11-30T21:52:38Z 2009-11-30T21:52:38Z

Bins do make sense... for about 8 months of the year in my neighborhood. Sept - January we still need the claw. But as a consumer, the convenience of the claw is worth the extra $2-3 / month. I would need to pay an undocumented gardener an extra $10 / wk to stuff everything into a bin, and find a place to put the bin. We have a modest compost pile thats appropriate for our modest garden, and 1 week in October provides enough compost for the whole year. One other point for those of you in favor of the bin. At a city council meeting several years ago, and more recently at a Land Park CA Annual Meeting folks have justified the use of bins because visitors from LA / SF found our leaf piles "unsightly" (or the resident had just moved from one of these places). Probably not a good tactic IMO (even if true)....nothing turns people away from a well founded argument like the insinuation that Sacramento doesn't measure up to the bay area or LA.

cogmeyer 2009-11-30T21:52:38Z thsas 2009-11-30T21:24:01Z 2009-11-30T21:24:01Z

what happens with the compost?

thsas 2009-11-30T21:24:01Z Robert Horowitz 2009-11-30T21:05:54Z 2009-11-30T21:05:54Z

I don't know what they did before the claw. But I suspect homeowners were more intimately involved. Good question! City archives or historians might be in the know. The claw is effective, but inefficient. By the time these materials make it to their final destination, I'll bet they have been handled by 5 different people and five different machines! Not sustainable! In the future, the large-scale compost facilities which are the best-case final destination for these materials will be more heavily regulated for air and water emissions. That means tipping fees have nowhere to go but UP. So, local, small scale solutions are needed. The less the city has to haul away, the better for taxpayers and the environment.

Robert Horowitz 2009-11-30T21:05:54Z Ben Ilfeld 2009-11-30T20:51:43Z 2009-11-30T20:51:43Z

Also, was there a time before "the claw?" Was 1977 pre-claw? I have heard a lot of complaints that the claw itself is an efficient but ineffective way to collect green waste. Perhaps landowners (I am one myself) should pay more for a more effective and timely solution - especially in the fall.

Ben Ilfeld 2009-11-30T20:51:43Z Ben Ilfeld 2009-11-30T20:49:06Z 2009-11-30T20:49:06Z

neighborhood composting? I like it. Are there some examples we could follow?

Ben Ilfeld 2009-11-30T20:49:06Z Robert Horowitz 2009-11-30T19:30:00Z 2009-11-30T19:30:00Z

I think Oracle has made some good points here, but I also agree that during certain times of the year, like this Saturday when high winds blew down a ton of leaves and branches, there can be an overwhelming amount of materials on the ground. I, for one, would be in favor of a city ordinance mandating property owners keep their street frontage clean and storm drains clear! Since I have a corner lot with 120' total of frontage, this is not something I say lightly. We need neighborhood-level solutions to these issues which keep the resources in the neighborhood. Maybe community block leaders or councils which help organize and compost leaves, branches and other materials so they stay out of the streets and out of the storm drains. Stop asking for city-level solutions to neighborhood-level problems. More backyard composting, more neighborhood composting, more street sweeping by homeowners, less gas-powered leaf blowers, less hauling away of valuable organics to distant landfills and compost facilities. What better way to meet your neighbors than a block party of sweeping, chipping and composting!

Robert Horowitz 2009-11-30T19:30:00Z Oracle 2009-11-30T18:14:14Z 2009-11-30T18:14:14Z

Having lived in the "close-in neighborhoods" for many years, I know the thought process. You'd be amazed how many leaves you can compress into a container. For some, it's just too much work to rake leaves. I mean exercise makes you sweat, drop a few pounds and all that. Our culture would rather pay somebody else to blow them into piles while we sit on our fat asses and watch Maury.

Oracle 2009-11-30T18:14:14Z StellaM 2009-11-30T18:04:52Z 2009-11-30T18:04:52Z

Oracle -- You are making some pretty inaccurate assumptions here about the mindset and behaviors of people in the close-in neighborhoods. For example, several of my neighbors and I do compost in our backyards. Many have installed low-water landscaping and water conserving irrigation. Sure, there are many people who don't have a clue about "green"--but I'd say on average the conciousness level in my neighborhood is far higher than the suburbs. And, yeah, we have the guy down the street who waters the gutters 24/7. But if you'd actually read my comment, I said I can understand what the city's trying to do, it's just the logistics that are problematic. One of the biggest issues for us is the huge number of trees, which we all love, but which regularly drop a ton of leaves and branches this time of year. Far too many leaves to compost in a small backyard set up, and 10-ft branches that, even if I owned a chainsaw, would never fit in the bin.

StellaM 2009-11-30T18:04:52Z beerzie 2009-11-30T17:16:21Z 2009-11-30T17:16:21Z

Here, here!

beerzie 2009-11-30T17:16:21Z Oracle 2009-11-30T16:55:47Z 2009-11-30T16:55:47Z

Anybody ever heard of composting leaves in their backyards? It's green, it's organic, it's probably too innovative for Land Parkers, Curtis Parkers and Midtowners who only talk a good green game. Leaving them piled in the streets is archaic, but the same naysayers are those who complain about conserving water. If you're not going to compost your green material, put it in containers so the city can and so we can use bike lanes, park vehicles and keep our storm drains from clogging.

Oracle 2009-11-30T16:55:47Z Steve V 2009-11-30T07:55:43Z 2009-11-30T07:55:43Z

Who wants to bet these city officials pushing bins on downtowners live in the suburbs? SUBURBS: tree? lawn lawn lawn driveway driveway driveway parking parking parking DOWNTOWN: tree tree tree tree tree driveway? parking? It is interesting to note that the City Utilities is making absolutely no effort to reach out to residents. This is because they know residents don't want bins.... so they have resorted to pushing bins with wacky "opt-out" programs. I hope whatever numbers/info they communicate based on that program will be reviewed with deserved skepticism. It's too bad City Utilities is a govt-enforced monopoly... I have no option to cancel their service when I find it unsatisfactory.

Steve V 2009-11-30T07:55:43Z Casey Kirk 2009-11-30T02:10:17Z 2009-11-30T02:10:17Z

Great job keeping up with this ongoing issue, Kathleen!

Casey Kirk 2009-11-30T02:10:17Z StellaM 2009-11-29T18:36:03Z 2009-11-29T18:36:03Z

While I appreciate that bins can keep the debris contained and out of the street/storm drains, right now the situation on my street is that (1) the 3rd bin is a pain to store, (2) almost no one in my neighborhood is using the bin, and (3) both vehicles (claw and truck) still have to come around each week anyway since there are now two pick up options in place. Also, it is a pain to rake up the leaves and then try to heave them accurately into the bin. Just logistically, the whole bin thing isn't working right now. For those of us with "mature landscaping" that requires pruning, the whole idea of all the green refuse fitting neatly into one container is just laughable.

StellaM 2009-11-29T18:36:03Z